= Сообщение: 4218 из 12549 ====================================== ENET.SYSOP = От : Robert Bashe 2:2448/44 14 Sep 16 08:19:06 Кому : Ward Dossche 14 Sep 16 08:19:06 Тема : Brexit FGHI : area://ENET.SYSOP?msgid=2:2448/44+57d8f1d1 На : area://ENET.SYSOP?msgid=2:292/854+a4066527 = Кодировка сообщения определена как: CP866 ================================== Ответ: area://ENET.SYSOP?msgid=2:292/854+a4039271 ============================================================================== Ward Dossche wrote to Robert Bashe on Tuesday September 13 2016 at 18:33:
RB>> And you to ignore one: with certain exceptions, the populations RB>> affected by all this were never asked what _they_ wanted. Everything RB>> was decided by politicians, who may have been elected, but certainly RB>> were not authorized to make such radical decisions as they did over RB>> their consistuency's heads.
WD> I will have to dissagree here with you. You probably expected that WD> too.
Of course.
WD> I'm looking at the constitution in my own country. What I can see is WD> that these politicians were within their full right to act. The WD> Supreme Court did not strike it down, on top of that we have a WD> Constitutional Court ,,. it didn't strike it down either, ergo fully WD> within the confines of the law and what is acceptable for the country.
Did anyone actually challenge the authority of those politicians in court? If not, no challenge = no opposition. And if things in Belgium are similar to those in Germany, ordinary people can't simply challenge governmental actions in court. Things here are much more complex, and - except for very rich and powerful individual - insurmountable.
WD> That's how it goes in a democracy, you exercise your right to WD> co-govern when you colour the dot, once that's done it is in someone WD> else's hands.
And are not asked, even in serious matters. Compare that with the system in Switzerland. Like day and night.
WD> This country in its 186 years of existance has had one referendum ... WD> the outcome was grossly disregarded to avoid a civil war ... we're WD> talking very early 50-ies.
And now you're in a position of having no effective government, since the Flemish and Walloons can't agree on anything except to fight one another. And _that_ is a government?
WD> A referendum is just what it is ... asking an opinion, non-binding. WD> The thing that made it such a big deal was that Cameron was so sure of WD> himself that he attached his political well-being to the outcome.
So what? Any government that willfully ignores the opinion of it's population is doomed. The risk that Cameron took was asking in the first place. Honorable, but for him personally a disaster.
WD> Well, such is life. If you burn your butt, you gotta sit on the WD> blisters.
How true.
RB>> You may say "then why weren't the governments voted out?". But to RB>> vote a government out, you have to have an alternative.
WD> No, a single vote of confidence in parliament is all that it takes, WD> then come early general elections.
A "single vote" is not such a simple thing to arrange as you may think. A large group of parliament must first vote for it, and only then may parliament as a whole vote on the measure. You're splitting hairs.
RB>> Ever hear of the AfD (Alternative fuer Deutschland)?
WD> Yes, and voting for such a party is not smart.
Depending on your political orientation.
WD> They have a one-point political platform, kinda like the German Greens WD> [and also the Belgian Greens], once elected and seated they got in WD> trouble ... real fast ... same will happen to AFD ... I compare that WD> to voting for Trump.
For your infoprmation, the German "Greens" were in the government and still enjoy the status of an "established" party. If "the same" will happen to the AfU, we have some interesting times coming.
RB>> Anyway, we have a drift from the political center to the right and RB>> left, accompanied by ever lower election participation.
WD> If you mean voter turn-out ... it is generally pretty good here as we WD> are obliged to vote.
We aren't. And when people are obliged to vote, that automatically raises the hackles of many, and they will vote for any opposition that arises.
WD>> I'm 65, so I can't count either.
RB>> You wouldn't count if you were 35, nor would I. The politicians had a RB>> grand idea - one that had the real advantage of giving them more RB>> power and money to spend - and that was that. Now _we_, you, I and RB>> all the rest who had no say in the matter, have to pay the bills and RB>> be treated like children by our overpaid "betters" based in Brussels. RB>> I'm not the only one who doesn't like that situation.
WD> The UK about 2 years ago finished paying-off its war debt for WW1 ... WD> they paid for 96 years. The bill for WW2 is even more attrocious ... WD> plus there's the human cost.
Which has _what_ to do with the subject? Germany only paid off it's debts from WWII in the late 1990s. So what?
WD> My opinion is that what we pay for the EU to ensure now 71 years WD> without an armed conflict, without massive bloodshed, without misery, WD> without tears shed and with the economic benefit ... is a small price WD> compared to the real price of the devastation after an extended WD> military conflict.
A commendable reason, if naive. It assumes placid harmony and a lack of resentment among all the EU members, which couldn't be further from the truth.
WD> Look at what the USA got itself into, and Afghanistan and Iraq are WD> only regional conflicts. That debt will never be paid in full.
So what? Is there currently a civil war in the States that I haven't heard about? And what government is free of debt? All governments do is roll over their debt, new bonds for old ones. That also has nothing to do with the EU.
WD> I compare it to Fidonet. All those who are not in power used to have WD> their mouth full about the power-abuse by the *Cs, while the majority WD> of the *Cs were trying their best to do a good job.
Maybe. Depends on whether those in power are listening to those who are not.
WD> People just love peeing against a high tree. Makes them feel WD> important.
Which they are not, at least not under the present pseudo-democratic systems. And here I also exepmt Switzerland, which is, for me, a great and desirable exception. If more countries would take this example to heart, there would be less dissatisfaction in the populations. But that, of course, would mean that the powers-that-be would have to sacrifice some of their power (to those who actually elected them!), and thus is impossible in countries like Germany - and Belgium.
