= Сообщение: 4805 из 12549 ====================================== ENET.SYSOP = От : Robert Bashe 2:2448/44 19 Apr 17 09:06:32 Кому : Michiel van der Vlist 19 Apr 17 09:06:32 Тема : Brexit, It giet oan! FGHI : area://ENET.SYSOP?msgid=2:2448/44+58f714d6 На : area://ENET.SYSOP?msgid=2:280/5555+58f67776 = Кодировка сообщения определена как: CP866 ================================== Ответ: area://ENET.SYSOP?msgid=2:280/5555+5909ded4 ============================================================================== Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Robert Bashe on Tuesday April 18 2017 at 22:10:
[Greek Bailout] MV>>> It is called developing insight. A change was needed to deal with MV>>> the mistake of letting Greece in the Euro.
RB>> Naturally without any change in the existing legal structure or RB>> treaties.
MV> When the ship is on imminent collision course with an iceberg, you MV> don't take it to a vote, you order a change of course immidiately.
You don't have to convince me, Michiel. Countries do what they want, regardless of any international rules. Germany - to my knowledge - was the first to break EU rules regarding inflation rates and debt (followed by France), but no sanctions (as specified in the EU treaties) were ever imposed.
So the Greek debacle is only a continuation of national interest. Neither the Germans nor the French - to name the two main EU "partners" - want to be caught up in a collapsing house of cards.
RB>> The German population reacts accordingly - and presumably not only RB>> the Germans.
RB>> How many Dutch people are happy to finance the graft and corruption RB>> that brought Greece to the present point? Not many, I would presume.
MV> Few were happy about it, but most realised that it was unavoidable.
Guess that depends on who you talk to. There is considerable discontent in Germany.
RB>>>> The whole Eurozone is in a crisis with no end in sight.
MV>>> Nonsense. There have been serious problems, but "crisis with no end MV>>> in sight" is grosly overdone.
RB>> Do you really believe that?
MV> I see problems, but nothing like "crisis with no end in sight".
RB>> Well, there are pessimists and optimists. You see the glass half RB>> full, and I see it half empty.
MV> Perhaps you should not have drunk half of that full glass...
Was it ever full? Maybe in 2002, when the Euro was first introduced as an actual cash (rather than a mere accounting) system. But that was the last time.
RB>>>> But except for the AfD, who do you vote for to change that?
MV>>> Not. I feel no need.
To vote? Then you are in the majority in most EU countries, certainly in Germany. Take a look at the election participation in countries where voting is not legally required (and leads to random votes).
RB>> To vote at all? I can understand that. No real alternatives.
MV> You may have missed it, but we had an election for parliament last MV> month. I did vote. By "not", I meant I did not vote to change "that" MV> as I see no "that". "Greece" was not an issue in this election and it MV> was not on my list of criteria to make a choice.
;-) No, but Turkey was. And that was why Turkish parliamentarians, and Erdogan himself, were banned from holding rallies. The Netherlands were only more strict than other EU countries (and Switzerland). Not surprising in view of the upcoming elections. Just imagine the capital Geert Wilders would have gotten if the government hadn't taken a hard stance.
If Greece had been the "current" crisis, the stance would have been equally hard. Elections are there to be won, not lost.
RB>>>> A "grand coalition" is certainly not the answer.
MV> Then what is the answer according to you.
A clear and unequivocal stance on issues that the electorate considers critical. The "wishi-washi" government we have had in Germany for the past four years has achieved next to nothing. No real opposition, rule by decree by the majority party (CDU/CSU), in which the junior partner (CSU) regrettably has a major voice in the politics, although it only represents a small part of the country (Bavaria).
Thanks to it, we may get toll roads in Germany, theoretically balanced by a reduction in the road tax for cars registered in Germany - but only theoretically. I pay around EUR 25 annual road tax for each of my two cars, and the politicians are talking about an annual toll of around EUR 45 for the Autobahns. Nobody here is stupid enough to believe that such things don't simply mean higher taxes for Germans. I'm all for the EU legal suits threatened by Austra and the Netherlands, and hope they clobber the German tolls really hard. Although I also wish the Austrians hadn't started the "toll race", grabbing for money where they can get it. That's what basically started the Bavarians thinking about an appropriate "revenge".
MV>>> Belief is not fact.
RB>> Indeed. That's why I'm so pessimistic.
MV> You are more than a pessimist. You are a nagativist. You say no to MV> everything but never say what has to be done to solve what you see as MV> problems.
I haven't been elected Chancellor of Germany. When I am, you'll hear some answers.
RB>>>> Are you aware that both the Mini and Rolls-Royce (to name two car RB>>>> manufacturers in the UK) belong to the German BMW company? And what RB>>>> are they supposed to do
MV>>> The car manufaturers are planning to move their assembly lines away MV>>> from the UK. The Netherlands may benefit. We have a couple of car MV>>> assmbly lines not rinnig full capacity right now.
RB>> Like the DAF production line? <beg>
MV> And some others. Believe it or not, we have some spare capacity for MV> car manufacturers.
You totally missed the dig ;-) Kees noticed it.
RB>>>> Absolutely nothing - if you also throw out Sweden Denmark and RB>>>> Greece, all of which get "special deals" with the EU.
MV>>> Again: None of thsoe have threatened to leave if they did not get MV>>> whatthey wanted.
RB>> No, they just wouldn't have joined in the first place. But again, RB>> wait and see.
MV> But they /have/ joined. With no intention of leaving.
How do you know? You don't live in any of those countries any more than I do.
RB>>>> There have been special deals for quite a numbver of countries, not RB>>>> only the UK.
MV>>> But the UK is the only one threatening to leave if they did not get MV>>> what they wanted, and eventually execute that threat. THEY left, MV>>> their choice. We are not going to kick out others for that.
RB>> Only if they want the same kind of deal the UK got.
MV> The UK did NOT get the deal that they wanted. That's why they left.
Only the problem of unlimited freedom of movement - particularly from poorer countries like Bulgaria and Roumania - led to the present situation in the UK. Everything else was negotiable. But the problem of foreigners tring to get into the UK (have you already forgotten the refugee camps at Calais?) brought the problem to a head.
MV>>> A divorce opens up old wounds. That is unavoidable. I already MV>>> mentioned Gibraltar.
RB>> Ancient history. Can you imagine Spain trying to invade Gibralter? I RB>> can't.
MV> Who knows. What is the UK going to do? Nuke Madrid?
No need to. Just send a few destroyers to Gibralter to prevent Spanish fishermen from fishing in its territorial waters. That would be enough.
MV> A military invasion is not likely. But I can see scenarios where MV> Gibraltar becomes part of the Brexit negotations. If there were some MV> "encouregments" like Spain closing the border, it may not be all that MV> unattractive for the UK to let go of Gibraltar.
Spain has closed the border more than once, but opened it again when it turned out that Spain was hurting more than the UK.
MV> Maybe Spain is willing to trade if for Ceuta...
Nice joke. Spain would probably like to get rid of Ceuta even as a gift, but nobody would be stupid enough to take it.
