= Сообщение: 3869 из 12549 ====================================== ENET.SYSOP = От : Michiel van der Vlist 2:280/5555 22 Jun 16 00:32:18 Кому : David Rance 22 Jun 16 00:32:18 Тема : Brexit FGHI : area://ENET.SYSOP?msgid=2:280/5555+5769cbc3 На : area://ENET.SYSOP?msgid=2:203/2+5769059e = Кодировка сообщения определена как: CP850 ================================== ============================================================================== Hello David,
On Tuesday June 21 2016 11:15, you wrote to me:
MvdV>> No doubt that the UK will be worse off after leaving. Not only MvdV>> wil its economy suffer, it may even be the start of the MvdV>> desintegration of the UK.
DR> Oh, there's no doubt of that.
About half the people in the UK are of opinion that it is better to leave.
MvdV>> The Scotts want to stay and so they may want to leave the UK in MvdV>> order to remain part of the EU.
DR> But they wouldn't "remain". They would have to put in an application DR> just as if they'd never been members. Nor will they keep any special DR> privileges.
Indeed. They would not be able to remain. So they will go for the next best thing: re-enter on their own steam. And they will most likely not get the special privileges that they enjoy now riding piggy back on the priviles granted to the UK. Which - if I may say so - should never have been granted in the first place.
MvdV>> A Brexit will not be good for the rest of Europe either. MvdV>> Especially for The Netherlands. We do a lot of trade with the MvdV>> UK.
MvdV>> But... look at the alternative. From the POV this side of the MvdV>> North Sea. The UK has always been the bad boy in class. The UK MvdV>> has always been the jamming station when it comes to making MvdV>> progress. They do not want the Euro, they do not want Schengen, MvdV>> they do not want Europol, the list of what they do not want is MvdV>> long. From this side of the channel it looks that you guys want MvdV>> just the benefits of membership.
DR> How can you say that when our contribution to the EU far outweighs DR> what we get back.
You just look at the difference between the contrinbution you pay for membership and the subsidies that you receive. But the reality is that you get a LOT more back that just the latter.
Actually the mere fact that you even mention that the UK is a net contributor shows the real problem in the relation between the UK and the EU. Your hearts and minds aren't in it...
Counting the drinks spoils the party.
MvdV>> Yes, we the EU, will pay a price for getting rid of the bad boy MvdV>> in class. But if the bad boy stays, it won't be over. The UK MvdV>> will continue to demand special priviliges and they will MvdV>> continue to be the jamming station whenever the rest wants to MvdV>> take steps towards tighter integration.
DR> Precisely! We do not want political integration. Why should that be DR> the aim in what was essentially an economic union?
Was it? "just an economic union"was never what the project was all about in my mind.
DR> We joined an economic union back in 1971 or 1972.And if we have DR> political union like an empire that have gone before, it is doomed to DR> failure.
Look at the USA. They have an economic AND political union. Would you call the USA a failure?
DR> Why can't we have just an economic union? What's wrong with it?
What is wrong with it is that it doesn't work. In an economic only union every country will just look at "what's in it for me". And that is the wrong attitude. I already saw it go wrong when Tatcher screamed "we want our money back".
MvdV>> For the EU it is a lose-lose situation. A Brexit is bad for the MvdV>> EU, but a Bremain may be worse. That is not just my opinion, MvdV>> lots of people here feel that way.
DR> Or, to put it another way, A Remain vote will keep the voice of sanity DR> alive in the EU.
I beg to differ.
MvdV>> It is probably not what you want to hear, but there is lots of MvdV>> attention in the media here and voice of "if they want to go MvdV>> let them go" is not a whisper in the dark...
DR> It depends which newspaper you read! ;-)
Today I read an interesting article in a mainstream newspaper, NRC. The artice was from Dutch journalist Joris Luyendijk, who has been living in London for the last five years. He pleads for a leave. His reasoning was that the "marriage between the UK and the EU" has failed and it would be better to part as friends. We don't want the same things. The UK is already half out anyway. Or perhaps it would be better to say they were never more than half in. Yes, the EU is in a crisis. What we need is loyal members that want to make an effort to put the project back on track again. For thet we need look further than just the money. The hearts and minds of the people need to be in it. The UK does not qualify. Better part as friends.
