= Сообщение: 4762 из 12549 ====================================== ENET.SYSOP = От : Michiel van der Vlist 2:280/5555 16 Apr 17 23:41:51 Кому : Robert Bashe 16 Apr 17 23:41:51 Тема : Brexit, It giet oan! FGHI : area://ENET.SYSOP?msgid=2:280/5555+58f3ee07 На : area://ENET.SYSOP?msgid=2:2448/44+58f33f30 = Кодировка сообщения определена как: CP850 ================================== Ответ: area://ENET.SYSOP?msgid=2:2448/44+58f49b00 ============================================================================== Hello Robert,
On Sunday April 16 2017 11:13, you wrote to me:
RB>>> Depends on whether they're net payers or net recipients. In the RB>>> latter case, there would be more hesitation.
MV>> Here we go again with that "net contributors, net benificiaries" MV>> mantra.
RB> Yep. And you shouldn't think I'm alone in thuinking of such things.
The error you guys make is that you think it is a zero sum game. Google for "synergy".
MV>> None of those is demanding a bettr deal and threatening to leave MV>> if they don't get their way.
RB> No, they got their way without any of that. Otherwise they wouldn't RB> have joined in the first place. But times change and some of those who RB> originally thought the EU was a great idea are becoming a bit RB> skeptical about having their internal affairs dictated from external, RB> non-elected bureaucracies. That's the crux of the matter.
No, the crux of the matter is that some should never have joined in the first place. The UK comes to mind. They should never have joined because theit hearts and minds were never in it. They just thought about "what's in it for me?"
MV>> You only see the thorns and even refuse to acknowledge that there MV>> are rosebuds.
RB> I try to take an even path. You seem to be a bit one-sided, and I try RB> to balance things by presenting arguments on the other side.
No, you only see the negative side. I have never ever heard you say anything positive about the EU.
MV>> Greece does not want to leave the EU and the problem is manageble.
RB> Is it? The IMF appears to have doubts, and the only reason the EU RB> still pours good money after bad is that it fears a domino effect if RB> Greece goes bust.
The reason money goes from the EU to Greece is because that is what we do when a member of our family is down and out. We help them. We may have togo on doing that for a long time. It is a manageable problem.
MV>>>> again: "let them go". I see a future for the EU without the UK. MV>>>> Now we can move on.
RB>>> To what?
MV>> To a better Europe.
RB> Unfortunately very naive. All you mean is thatr we sacrifice still RB> more personal freedom for the questionalbe benefit of (perhaps, but RB> not necessarily) more security.
The move towards sacrificing personal freedom for security does not come from the EU, it comes from my own governments. It is my own governmemt that keeps changing the rules to give them more power to play big brother. It is the EU that is trying to put the brake on that.
MV>> When the bad guys can cross the borders just like that, we need MV>> police that can also cross the borders just like that to chase MV>> them. Closing borders is no longer an option. We can't stop ever MV>> truck at the border for inspection as we did 50 years ago. The MV>> would also set back our economy by 50 years. So we need a police MV>> that can chase the criminals across borders. Something like the MV>> FBI in the US. The UK has always blocked that. Now ee can go MV>> ahaed.
RB> You're talking about a "United States of Europe", which is exactly RB> what many of the EU members rabidly reject.
It will happen. There is no other way.
RB> In the USA, "states rights" has been a major and sometimes violent RB> political iussue since 1798 (the constitution),
Nevertheless the US /is/ united. They have a federal government, they have a federal police force, they have a federal army and they have a federal supreme court. And that systems works well.
RB> and there, most people came from one culture and spoke the same RB> language.
They did NOT come from one culture. And that is still visible. There is still a China Town...
RB>>> This attitude of revenge is certainly not going to get us RB>>> anywhere desirable.
MV>> It is not revenge. It is looking after our own interest.
RB> And trying to "punish" the UK for it's unrequited love.
Not punishment, just no longer let them have the benefits of membership. They think it is in their best interest to no longer be a member. They want to get rid of the duties of membership. Ok... It is not in the interest of the other members to let non members have the benefits of membership, and so they will be revoked. You don't pay the contribution, you don't eat at the club's table. What is wrong with that?
RB>>> A kindly, peaceful separation, like an uncontested divorce,
MV>> There is no such thing as an uncontested divorce.
RB> You're dreaming. They happen every day.
It will not happen with the UK divorcing from the EU.
RB> And the other would have been to realize that the UK had a problem and RB> try to fix it within the framework of the EU. But nobody really tried RB> that.
Oh we tried. They kept demanding "better deals"and special priviliges over and over again. And we kept pacifying them by giving them wat they wanted. Over and over again for decades. It was never enough.
RB>>> Good for you. And they are?...
MV>> I already mentioned an EU equivalent of the FBI.
RB> ;-) What do you call Europol?
Europol has no teeth. It is not a federal police like the FBI that can operate EU wide and chase criminals across borders.
RB> And the EU arrest warrent that has kept Julian Assange in the RB> Ecuadorian embassy in London for the past 4 years?
No, it is the British playing leap dog for the Americans thay keeps Assange pinned down in the Ecuadorian embassy.
RB> The English have nothing against him, and even the Swedes have never RB> charged him (but are surely under masssive pressure from the USA RB> to extradite him as soon as he touches Swedish soil).
Exactly. The threat comes from the West.
MV>> Also we can stop making cars that can easely be converted for MV>> driving on the left side of the road. ;-)
RB> ;-) Can they?
Converting an existing car is not easy, but almost all cars can be had - and are produced - in a left and a right hand version.
RB> Anyway, I never really got used to shifting with my left RB> hand when I was in Sough Africa.
I never had a problem with it. But then I learned it /very/ young.
