= Сообщение: 4774 из 12549 ====================================== ENET.SYSOP = От : Michiel van der Vlist 2:280/5555 17 Apr 17 19:38:30 Кому : Robert Bashe 17 Apr 17 19:38:30 Тема : Brexit, It giet oan! FGHI : area://ENET.SYSOP?msgid=2:280/5555+58f50268 На : area://ENET.SYSOP?msgid=2:2448/44+58f49b00 = Кодировка сообщения определена как: CP850 ================================== Ответ: area://ENET.SYSOP?msgid=2:2448/44+58f5eada ============================================================================== Hello Robert,
On Monday April 17 2017 12:02, you wrote to me:
MV>> No, you only see the negative side. I have never ever heard you MV>> say anything positive about the EU.
RB> And when have you said anything negative about it?
Did I not say earlier this morning that the UK should never have joined? Have I not said repeatedly that Greece should not have been allowed in the Euro? Have I not said that letting the former Sovjet countries join, was too quick a change? That was not just too quick for the EU, but it was also a bad idea to have them join NATO. Russia had good reason to feel threatened by such a significant and fast expansion of NATO.
Those were all mistakes. But leaving and letting the EU fall apart is not the right way to correct those mistakes.
RB> That's my point. I try to balance your positivism with a few facts on RB> the negative side.
Hmmm... I am trying to balance your negativism by mentioning some positive points...
RB> If they didn't exist, there would have been no BREXIT,
No, brexit was unavoidable because the hearths and mind of the British were never in it. It was unavoidable that they would overstretch the relation by demanding ever more and more. I repeat: they shoukd never have joined in the first place.
RB> no problems with Poland and Hungary.
Those problems are of a totally different nature. Those countries are new to the concept of democracy. They have been under totalitarian rule for generations. I will take time for them to settle in. Guidance and patience will take care of it.
MV>> The reason money goes from the EU to Greece is because that is MV>> what we do when a member of our family is down and out. We help MV>> them. We may have togo on doing that for a long time. It is a MV>> manageable problem.
RB> The interesting thing about this is that when the EU was formed, it RB> was agreed that each member would be responsible for it's own economy RB> and not receive bailouts from the other members.
It is called developing insight. A change was needed to deal with the mistake of letting Greece in the Euro.
RB> The whole Eurozone is in a crisis with no end in sight.
Nonsense. There have been serious problems, but "crisis with no end in sight" is grosly overdone.
RB> But except for the AfD, who do you vote for to change that?
Not. I feel no need.
RB> A "grand coalition" is certainly not the answer.
Belief is not fact.
RB>>> You're talking about a "United States of Europe", which is RB>>> exactly what many of the EU members rabidly reject.
MV>> It will happen. There is no other way.
RB> Belief is not fact.
Disbelief is not fact either.
RB>>> In the USA, "states rights" has been a major and sometimes RB>>> violent political iussue since 1798 (the constitution),
MV>> Nevertheless the US /is/ united. They have a federal government, MV>> they have a federal police force, they have a federal army and MV>> they have a federal supreme court. And that systems works well.
RB> And everyone except for minorities speak english and have a common RB> heritage. Compare that with Europe.
The vast majority of the present US population stems from European immigrants. With the same diversity of culture and language as the Europeans. Yes, almost all of them speak English now. After the original populatin was almost exterminated. BTW, ,ost Europeans Speak English also.
MV>> Not punishment, just no longer let them have the benefits of MV>> membership.
RB> Great. And how do you propose to get English goods to the EU - and I RB> don't mean merely orange marmalade and Scotch whiskey - in your RB> future? The EU benefits from the UK as much as vice-versa.
That is what the Bresiteers were told. But if it ever was that way, it is not going to stay that way. And regarding thsoe goods, I do not propose anything. We do not need the UK for ornage marmelade and for whisky, there is whiskey. (From Ireland). And when Scotland seperates form the UK and returns in the EU, we can have Scotch again too.
RB> Are you aware that both the Mini and Rolls-Royce (to name two car RB> manufacturers in the UK) belong to the German BMW company? And what RB> are they supposed to do
Tghe car manufaturers are planning to move their assembly lines away from the UK. Th Nethelands may benefit. We have a couple of car assmbly lines not rinnig full capacity right now.
MV>> They think it is in their best interest to no longer be a member. MV>> They want to get rid of the duties of membership. Ok... It is not MV>> in the interest of the other members to let non members have the MV>> benefits of membership, and so they will be revoked. You don't pay MV>> the contribution, you don't eat at the club's table. What is wrong MV>> with that?
RB> Absolutely nothing - if you also throw out Sweden Denmark and Greece, RB> all of which get "special deals" with the EU.
Agian: None of thsoe have threatened to leave if they did not get whatthey wanted. And no one is kicked out. The UK was not kicked out, she choose to leave by her own decision.
RB> For that matter, Poland did, too. Freedom of movement was restricted RB> for several years after the Poles joined the EU, since the Germans RB> were afraid the cheap labor would disrupt their economy.
That exception did not just apply to Germany and Poland, It applied to all "new"countries. All new countries got restriction for a couple of years on the freedom of movement.
RB> There have been special deals for quite a numbver of countries, not RB> only the UK.
But the UK is the only one threatening to leave if they did not get what they wanted, and eventually execute that threat. THEY left, their choice. We are not going to kick out others for that.
RB>>>>> A kindly, peaceful separation, like an uncontested divorce,
MV>>>> There is no such thing as an uncontested divorce.
RB>>> You're dreaming. They happen every day.
MV>> It will not happen with the UK divorcing from the EU.
RB> You wish. That's revenge for unrequited love.
Call it what you want,I say it is noty in our interest to given them the benifits of mebership when they no longer want to be a member. Out is out.
A divorce opens up old wounds. That is unavoidable. I already mentioned Gibraltar.
