MvdV> On Tuesday December 31 2019 12:58, you wrote to me:
DR>> It's the same for me when ordering from Europe. I use a sterling DR>> credit card with an extremely good rate of exchange and no charges for DR>> the conversion to euros and with a low limit just in case of problems.
MvdV> Ah, there we go. I don't have a credit card. Not any more. I cancelled MvdV> mine years ago. I hadn't used it for years, so why pay th yearly fee MvdV> for something I do not need. I has been so long ago that I used a MvdV> credit card that I had forgotten about the concept.
Everywhere, except the Netherlands it appears, people use credit cards most of the time. In the UK we do not pay any yearly fees and now we don't even have a surcharge when using it with a retailer. My credit card has a cashback (a small percentage of the total cost of each transaction is refunded and paid back to me yearly) so, for me, using a credit card is the cheapest way of making purchases, cheaper even than using cash. I pay my credit card bill in full monthly so I don't have to pay any interest.
And my credit card is with a building society that, when I make purchases abroad, the exchange rate is the same as the interbank rate at the time the purchase is made (which means that purchases made within a few minutes of each other can have a slightly different exchange rate) and this is always a much better rate than transferring money to my French bank account.
I have a limit on my credit card so that, even if it is stolen, the thief would not be able to rack up too much of a debt. But I don't even have to show my card any more in most places (including abroad) because it's now registered on my iPhone. So I just use my phone to make purchases, just as though I were using the card "contactless" which means I don't even have to enter the PIN. The card app uses facial recognition so, even if I lost my phone, no-one can use the phone at all, let alone make purchases.
However I also have a debit card which sounds more like what you're talking about where transactions are charged directly to my bank account. I very rarely use this to make purchases. In fact the only time that I've used it in this way was to buy a car, a very large amount. But as it was a planned expense I transferred money to that account just before I went out to make the purchase (and all done online). At all other times there is little money there. That, too, uses a PIN.
But you mentioned a card that you can "charge" with money. They used to have these in France (called "Monnaie" I seem to remember) and various banks have tried to bring them in here in the UK, but they've never been popular and I don't know if they still exist.
MvdV> I have a so called "PIN card". I can pay almost everywhere with it and MvdV> the amount is directly deducted from my bank account. Since the EU got MvdV> involved, it works in the entire Euro zone, without any extra cost. No MvdV> need fo a credit card...
DR>> I've never had problems when using a card - except for once when I DR>> used it at a hotel in Waterloo. I'm fairly sure that someone at the DR>> hotel desk skimmed it because later that day it was blocked by the DR>> issuer.
MvdV> That risk is substantially lower with the "PIN card" system. That card MvdV> never leaves my posession. When it is stolen it is pretty useless MvdV> without the PIN code.
We had this discussion a year or two back when you insisted at the time that the PIN is not registered on the card but that the card machine contacted the bank for it. Well, that may be true for your PIN card but it's certainly not true for credit and debit cards. They all have PINs and they are recorded on the card's chip. That's how cards can get "skimmed" by anyone with a suitable machine. This is why, when we use our credit/debit card the retailer is not now allowed to take it out of our sight. In fact they shouldn't touch them at all, and should put their portable machine into our hands for us to enter the card and the PIN.
MvdV> Credit cards are not popular here since we can use the "PIN Card" MvdV> everywhere. Retailers are reluctant to accept them because of the risk MvdV> and the cost. Like the customers they prefer the PIN Card. With the PIN MvdV> card the retailer is sure to get his money.
And so he would with a debit card. If the transaction goes through then the retailer gets his money.
MvdV> Credit cards... I consider it a thing of the past decade...
Ah well, the rest of the world has yet to catch up! ;-)
DR>> It was embarrassing when Ann and I had a meal in a restaurant in DR>> Middelburg and they wouldn't accept my card!
MvdV> Next time ask in advance...
Why? For goodness' sake, we are all in the EU (well, the UK is at the moment!) and surely one could expect things like transactions to work in any EU country. I can use my credit/debit cards without any prior arrangement in France, in Germany, in Spain, Austria, Belgium, Italy - and have done so! Why should I have expected the Netherlands to be different? I never had problems back in the 1980s when we had holidays in Zeeland and had to use eurocheques.
MvdV>>> No way I will ever again buy something on-line in the UK...
DR>> It does sound from what you've written (and this is why I haven't DR>> edited it) that the delay was more to do with what happened once the DR>> goods had left England. I've had no such problems in the other DR>> direction. It wasn't the fault of the sender that Post NL didn't carry DR>> out their proper instructions.
MvdV> O am not blaming the sender. But such problems wit htracking codes do MvdV> not occur when ordering something from conitental EU. I say: "Royal MvdV> Mails's system does not interface well with the continental systems"...
Don't have a problem with France getting tracking from the UK. Aren't you basing your judgement on just one bad experience?
DR>>>> But then it would have been bad for the UK economy.
MvdV>>> Would it? Really?
MvdV>>> By that same reasoning Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland MvdV>>> should never have joined the Pound Sterling and have kept their MvdV>>> own currency instead.
DR>> That's not a very sensible statement, is it? I thought we were being DR>> serious.
MvdV> I am very serious. It is the same reasoning taken to another level. Why MvdV> would having a common monetary system be bad for the economy when MvdV> applied on the Euopean level, but good for the economy when applied one MvdV> level lower on the National level? Why did the US introduce the Dollar MvdV> for all the States? Did it not hurt the economy of Texas when they had MvdV> to part with the Texas Dollar?
Because the formation of the United Kingdom was hundreds of years ago when the economy was very different. Today a country's economy is affected by world trends moment by moment and the UK felt the need to be able to respond to those fluctuations on its own account.
MvdV>>> But then how come the UK people MvdV>>> never heard about schengen? Did the government hide it from MvdV>>> them?
DR>> Our government hid a lot of the benefits from us.
MvdV> How come they get away with it? Here the try as well, but they seldeo MvdV> get away with it.
Oh yes, it's our fault! It always is! :-|
DR>>>> Imperial measures? Well we're half and half. I have a set of DR>>>> weights for both systems in my kitchen. But we do have to sells DR>>>> goods in metric (we passed that law years ago).
MvdV>>> Hmmm... Earlier today I saw a sign with "speed limit 60 mph" in MvdV>>> a news flash. OK, that was Northern Ireland. But that it still MvdV>>> the UK isn't it?
DR>> I wrote "But we do have to *sell* goods in metric". Where do we sell DR>> 60mph???
MvdV> You narrowed it down to selling. I did not make that restriction when I MvdV> claimed youi were still using imperial measures.
So what are you referring to if it isn't to do with selling? How do you know that we are still using imperial measures *and* weights? Metric is taught in schools and has been for years and my children and grandchildren think in metric with but one exception - miles! When I give them weights in pounds and ounces or measurements in feet and inches they don't know what I mean.They don't know how many yards there are in a mile but they know how far it is to the next town!
DR>> We sell fuel in litres. We sell groceries, drinks, etc., when sold by DR>> weight, in kilos. And any retailer selling in imperial only is DR>> prosecuted. What more do you want? Oh yes, kph!
MvdV> It is not what I want.
What more *evidence* do you want to justify your claim? Ok, what more evidence do you *need*?
MvdV> I just notice that you still use imperial measures.
But WHERE? *Where* do you notice it? You've given just one example. Is that all? But don't you measure television screens in inches! They do in France - pouces! They do in Germany - Zoll. What's the Dutch word for it - duim? (Ok, so you Europeans are beginning to go over to centimetres for TVs but you still list them in both.)
MvdV> Even the Irish use kph...
<sigh> But they are not part of the United Kingdom. The Northern Irish are still using mph.
.... Time for a cuppa and then to do some work ... Byeee!
David
-- Formerly ICHTHUS (Reading) UK (1987-2007 R.I.P.) (2:292/854.110)
