= Сообщение: 441 из 1367 ============================================= UTF-8 = От : Konstantin Kuzov 2:5019/40.1 05 Mar 17 20:12:14 Кому : Michiel van der Vlist 05 Mar 17 20:12:14 Тема : UTF-8 nodelist FGHI : area://UTF-8?msgid=2:5019/40.1+58bc52aa На : area://UTF-8?msgid=2:280/5555+58b97ad4 = Кодировка сообщения определена как: CP866 ================================== Ответ: area://UTF-8?msgid=2:280/5003.4+58bc9f74 Ответ: area://UTF-8?msgid=2:280/5555+58bd4d57 ============================================================================== Konnichi wa, *Michiel-kun*! Aogu manako oyobi uketamawaru waga koe! Tomodachi _Michiel van der Vlist_ tsukuru airon _Konstantin Kuzov_ Nichiji - /*03 Мар 17 14:50*/, Daizai - /*UTF-8 nodelist*/:
KK>> Through I'm not a big fan of the idea of UTF-8 nodelist project KK>> in it's current state because: 1) It is completely separated KK>> version of nodelist. So it is prone to out of sync issues with KK>> ascii-only version.
MvdV> Yes, there is that risk. For my own net, I have minimised the risk by MvdV> only editing the UTF-8 version and derive the ASCII version from the MvdV> UTF-8 version with a SED script. So they are always in sync. MvdV> http://www.vlist.eu/downloads/fidolist/ascifi.sed
Sadly, that method wouldn't work for cyrillic names as there are several standards for names transliteration. Wiki mentions that there are at least five. Above that users often prefer using mixed versions and add something from themselves like 'v' ending becomes 'off'.
And it doesn't solve the problem if one of the segments were lost in transit or not processed by nodelist generator.
MvdV> When we would redesign Fidonet from the start, there are a lot of MvdV> things we would do different. One of them would be the nodelist. As it MvdV> is, we are stuck with decisions made in the past. Changing the MvdV> nodelist format will involve the cooperation of everyone in Fidonet MvdV> and that is just not going to happen. There are too many that use MvdV> software thet depends on the nodelist as it is. So the ASCII only MvdV> nodelist as it is, is not going away for the forseeable future, so MvdV> everything alse - whatever it is - will have to be a parallel MvdV> distribution. No way around it.
Yes. So maybe for now the UTF-8 version needs to be derivative version of ascii version, not the completely parallel replacement. It must be generated from ascii segments and additional information like native names, locations and so on.
KK>> 2) IMHO it must also contain latin-only representations. KK>> Ability to see native representation of information is very good, KK>> but to properly understand it you must know that language.
MvdV> But that goes both ways. Someone from Russia, or any other country MvdV> with a native language that uses the Cyrillic alfabet, who does not MvdV> know English or any other language that uses the Latin alfabet, can MvdV> not properly understand the information in the ASCII only nodelist MvdV> either.
I hardly imagine a man who in 2017 doesn't know latin alphabet on transliteration level. But easily imagine the one who doesn't know cyrillic alphabet. I don't even say anything about any asian languages or for example hebrew.
KK>> I understand the desire to keep compatibility with old format but KK>> maybe we need to also introduce xml/json version which would KK>> contain both ascii and utf-8 representations if they are KK>> different.
MvdV> At present I think that is a bridge too far. Plus that we would still MvdV> have the sync problem, the old ASCII only nodelist is not going away. MvdV> Not for a long time.
Yes, so as I suggested above we can use ASCII version as a source for "extended" unicode version. And virtually nothing prevents generation of additional versions with different format.
KK>> Just asked R50C about current state of NC's counter and expressed KK>> my desire to join. MvdV> Any response?
Nope, not yet.
MvdV> Do you know any other NCs in R50 that maybe would like to join?
Sadly, no. I weren't particularly active in fidonet for the last 7-8 years. Most of the people I knew are long retired from fidonet.
